From: military-radio-guy Full-Name: Dennis R Starks To: kc5ijd@sprintmail.com Fcc: Sent Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:05:54 Subject: Military Collector Group Post, Nov.21/97 Message-ID: <19971127.070318.3335.11.military-radio-guy@juno.com> X-Status: Sent X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 Military Collector Group Post, Nov.21/97 Index: I'm On The Rag! Desert Storm Trophies,& JCMEC: By Bill Howard,& Dennis Starks Part IX; Conclusion Manuals Needed; Continental Base Tubes; WHATSIT; Japanese BC-191? What An Ass!; HUMOR; ******************************************************* I'm On The Rag! To my great dismay, very few comments have been received sense the below series on Desert Storm Trophies,& CMEC began, & those few that were received were nearly all from one person. The same has been true in virtually all other articles, & series posted here. In future if I put a proposal to the group & request input, comments, & suggestions, or to know if your interested, & little or no responses are received, the subject will be dropped. No need to waist hundreds of hours in writing & research if nobody is interested! MYSTERY RADIO proposal; As of this time only two people have expressed an interest in the MYSTERY RADIO proposal, & then no suggestions, or input were offered for the subject matter(RBZ), no candidates for the next topic radio, nothin. So to hell with that idea. I would have thought that all possible knowledge of the history, & use, the whys, wheres, whens & by whoms would be of the utmost importance to the owner of a physical piece of history. Sure as hell is to me, but apparently not to many others. We like to know that your out there & alive. Your comments & input are always sought, & even requested, no matter what they may be. It's not like you'd need to waist a stamp or a phone call to respond, you need only to type a few words, & hit send. Your typing skills could not possibly be worse than mine were when this group started. Help Results; In the last year countless hundreds of request for help, information, manuals, material, etc have been posted here by our members. It has always been requested that you let me know if you've been helped as a reasult of these postings, & who it was that helped you. This for two main reasons,#1) to let me know your needs have been satisfiad so that they aren't posted repeatedly for no reason. #2) so that I may know who is takeing an active part in the support of our members. I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, how many times I've been informed. Are these postings that ineffective? If so why continue with them? Or is it just inconsiderate neglect? MEMBER PROFILES; When you were sent the invitation for this group. The few rules that were unanimously agreed on included,"you must respond with your acceptance of the above, & your current interest in collecting". Of the well over 100 members of this group, only about 20 have responded with this information. The standard reply being "count me in". What little info that has been received can be seen posted in the "MEMBER PROFILE", "New Guys on the Block", sections of these post. This information was requested in order to give you a start. So that you might tell us something about yourself, your collecting interest, your expertise, why you collect, what you collect, & provide some info about what type of material your looking for. You could have put just about anything in the message you wanted to promote your cause. MEMBER PROFILE #1 was myself, just to give you an idea of what you might include. With nothing to loose, & everything to gain, why is it that so many are so reluctant to comply? Well I guess it's no skin off my nose. Member recruitment; Some time ago, a formal invitation was posted, so that you could provide it to persons that might be, or have expressed an interested in participating with our group. This was mainly done to save both me & the prospective member a bunch of needless message traffic & time, getting him on the list faster. Again I can count on one hand the times this has been done. Whats the since in having ten fingers to count with if only five are needed? Every day I receive a messages from collectors saying "so & so said you might be able to such & such". "So & so" is always a member of this group, the collector however has no idea this group exist. Why is it that "so & so" has not informed this fellow collector? Is the competition so bad that you feel you might be revealing a source? If so I'm flattered, & pissed! Or is it again just inconsiderate neglect? In this case I'm just pissed! It is to all of your advantage to have as many participants as possible thus improving the pool of information & resources. Personally I don't much care if there's one more member or not because it cost me money each time I make one of these post, & the more people, the more money. This because there can only be 50 addresses in each address book folder, & there is now three of these folders for this group. Each post requires a long distance connection three times do to Juno traffic restrictions (hopefully to be remedied in the near future). But I would think that the general membership would see the advantage to a greater subscription count. Let me see, what else do I wonna bitch about? Well, I'll thinka somethin. Dennis ******************************************************** Desert Storm Trophies,& JCMEC: By Bill Howard,& Dennis Starks Part IX; Conclusion Not much new input has come in sense this series was started, so all that is left are some closing comments. We have presented all the "known" equipment that has been brought back here as trophies from Desert Storm, & their counties of origin. And as was mentioned in the opening text, all these radios shared one of two traits, they were cheep, & or were outdated, sometimes extremely so. However this list is by no means complete, as misc equipment from East Germany, Hungary, & Japan have been either identified or rumored. Even the Motorola name has been connected with Iraq. Bill will mention in his closing remarks possible political reasons for the purchase of some of this equipment & this is certainly a viable point. Though the possibility some of this equipment was originally captured from wars with Iran, & the blitz of Kuwait, there is no way of knowing if this is so. Another question comes to mind. If captured Iranian equipment would inter the seen, Then why none of U.S. origin? You must remember, that until 1979 & the Shaw was run out of town, the U.S. had very friendly relations with Iran. I even went through boot camp along side their officers in the mid 70's, in San Diego. And a last consideration is, after the Hostage/Embassy crisis, Iran went to war with Iraq. This action was embraced by the CIA, who at least supplied satellite surveillance images of Iran to Iraq. And this accounts for their knowledge of what could be seen with these satellites, & as a result, how to hide their scuds. What else might have been supplied? There was a lot of U.S. radio equipment to hit the market after Desert Storm, these included, in order of their frequency, the PRC-127, PRC-68, PRC-90, PRC-126, to name just a few. This equipment was however of to late a design to have been acquired as speculated above. Also note the extremely small size of those radios listed, I know for a fact, much of it was "hotter than hell". So these could not be considered trophies, more like souvenirs. If radio equipment of U.S. origin was encountered in Iraqi hands, one major fact would have prevented our knowledge of it. All throughout the twentieth century U.S. military history, it has been impossible for the run of the mill grunt to return home with any type of equipment of U.S. origin, not so much as a web belt, ammo pouch or canteen(if he tries to do so in a above board manor). I know this from personal experience, & the testimony of numerous veterans. This is for two distinct reasons,#1) it eases the unknowing & uncaring minds of those tasked with the inspection of these items, & saves them the trouble of discerning whether or not the equipment in question is really yours, or pilfered US stocks. #2) it saves the US any possible embarrassment. In Vietnam, hundreds of radios, & thousands of small arms of U.S. origins were captured by American troops. Though these items may have been obtained under the most innocent & honorable of circumstances, none of it was allowed home. Ordnance & radio equipment found it's way to this theater by several means including; #1) WW-II Chinese lend lease(commo & arms) #2) OSS supplies to war time Viet Minh partisans(arms) #3) PostwarFrance obtained special permission from the U.S. to use WW-II lend lease equipment in Vietnam, not to mention post war supplies(commo & arms) #4) Originally supplied to South Vietnamese Forces(commo & arms). #5) And lest we forget the entire armies completely outfitted & paid by the CIA in Cambodia & Loas prior to official U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Any of these would be embarrassing to the U.S. government with the GI returning home with his stories of capture in enemy hands, & the questions that might be asked of how it got into the enemies hands, especially in the case of #2, #5 which at the time was still highly classified. The same would be true in the Gulf. In the early stages of the Vietnam war, the above equipment was of WW-II vintage & included such things as BC-611's, BC-1306's, & BC-1000's. The most common small arms were the 30M1 carbine & 1911 45's. Had any of these been Foreign types they would have been legal souvenir fodder. It is not known what became of this early communications equipment, but serviceable small arms were returned to U.S. or South Vietnamese stores. As the course of the war progressed, so too did the captured equipment . Advancing to PRC-6', 10's, 25's, 77's, HT-1's, TR-5's, 20's, GRC-9's & 109's etc, & coinciding later model arms. These too were returned to allied stores or use when practical. Even in the case of re-captured U.S. equipment. The value of the information gained by CMEC, it's forerunners, & sister organizations, is without adequate description. Though Bill will stress the technical intelligence gained from captured equipment & how it relates to re-utilization of the equipment, it's technology, or combating it. These are only the most obvious of the means by which the data could be used. Tracing the country of origins, serial numbers, types & vintage of equipment, netted valuable tactical, strategic, & political information that could be used as ammunition in high level political intrigue, provide insights into enemy supply avenues, & conditions etc. This all whether the equipment in question was of U.S or foreign origin. Indeed it was captured Warsaw Pact, & Communist Chinese equipment(including serial numbers of U.S. equipment traced back to WW-II lend lease & these countries) that would be used by the U.S. government to prove the existence of the outside communist backers of Viet Cong forces, thus convincing the public of the validity in our involvement. I've tried to touch on some points of the value that can be gained from the study of captured equipment beyond the obvious technical aspects. But it just isn't possible to convey. We directly have to thank the intelligence community for much of the information presented in this series especially as it applies to equipment of Communist Block countries. The technical descriptions are the direct result of material printed buy them, including English translations of the equipment's original manuals. Dating back to WW-II, it is to their credit that we now have the very little information available concerning radios of the Axis. I can't think of anything else to contribute without rambling on idly & hopelessly, & my two typing fingers are getting tired, so I'll conclude with our group motto. "We thank you for your interest in our history as it is represented by this equipment." Dennis Starks; MILITARY RADIO COLLECTOR/HISTORIAN military-radio-guy@juno.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The deployment of U.S. forces as part of the coalition of nations allied against Iraq saw many new concepts and equipment used in combat for the first time. As a Vietnam vereran, I take some measure of satisfaction that the basic concepts of a Captured Material Exploitation Center supporting teams deployed in forward areas. First started in the Pacific in WW II (and further refined during the Vietnam era), was employed from the start of the conflict. As a result, many national intelligence collection requirements were satisfied. In addition, handbooks on enemy equipment were made available to the troops almost the first day of the deployment. Past wars had seen similar handbooks but not until too late to be of any real use. The information derived from the exploitation of captured material to include radios will no doubt prove useful to the electronics research and development community. It is impossible to calculate the value this will have and it is also impossible to state what future electronic devices will emerge for this conflict. I feel very strongly about the necessity to maintain a strong technical intelligence capability, with trained people during peacetime so they are immediatly available on short notice. An infantry unit cane be trained in a short time, 16 weeks under current training programs but technicalintelligence personnel require a lot longer training period. As Dennis has pointed out in discussing many of the radios, the trend is toward modular components, plugged into a frame of connectors, which makes a great deal of sense for manufacturing and for field repair. What I find disturbing is that in the process, our radio technicians have become module changers, using some proprietary sophisticated test equipment. If a certain test result is obtrained, change module A, if another reading is obtained, change module B and so on. Our technicians are rapidly loosing their understanding of how a radio actually works. As to the Iraqi forces, the diversity of equipment, to include radios, shows the extent of their procurement process. They have procured radios from all over. Some no doubt for political reasons and some because of availability. Their communications must have been a nightmare for those responsible, especially for stocking repair parts. It is to be assumed that they have learned something from this past conflict and may not be so easy to defeat in the next conflict. Time will tell what develops. I can only hope that our technical intelligence people, our signal intercept people are ready when caled upon. William L. Howard LTC Armor USAR CMEC 1967-1968 THE WILLIAM L. HOWARD ORDNANCE TECHNICAL INTELLIGENCE MUSEUM e-mail wlhoward@gte.net Telephone AC 813 585-7756 ******************************************************* Manuals Needed; Pete needs manuals, or copies for a BC-223, & TBX-8. Email; mccollum@ssdevo.ENET.dec.com -------------------------------------------------------------- I also need manuals for several very early Motorola portables, if you have any or know where they can be found, let me know. Also need a manual for the MAY-1, & a couple hundred other radios, a list is available. Thanks, Dennis ******************************************************* Continental Base Tubes; Does anybody have a source for Continental tube bases? These are needed to fabricate adapters for rare European,& Japanese prewar tubes, so that less valuable octal types can be used. At present, a campaign is under way to get Antique Electronic Supply to market these as they already do other early tube base types. If you would like to join in the struggle, send your comments to them directly at Email; gregc@tubesandmore.com In the mean time, anybody that has a source for these bases can contact Bill Howard at Email; wlhoward@gte.com If you also have an interest in finding some of these bases, let me know. Dennis ******************************************************* WHATSIT; Japanese BC-191? Dennis, Someone just sent me a picture of the tube panel cover of a "Japanese BC-191" Have you ever heard of the Japanese making a copy of the BC 191? I can not make out if the Data Plate is in Japanese but there is Japanese writing across the panel. Looks like it may have been an attempt to simply label it. Do any of you have any knowledge of this? Bill Howard THE WILLIAM L. HOWARD ORDNANCE TECHNICAL INTELLIGENCE MUSEUM e-mail wlhoward@gte.net Telephone AC 813 585-7756 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- You think this is a war time production? A war time re-utilization like the Jap command set found last year? A post war clone like the JBC-611, or JEE-8? Or maybe something we supplied to them postwar like the Jap ARC-5's encountered? In light of the just received below response, it would seem if they were building BC-342's they'd need a transmitter to go with it, the BC-191. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Sir, > > Right after the Korean war, the Japanese military had been re-established > under the name of the Defense Force. For this reason, many kinds of weapons were made under the license of the US goverment. I once had these radios; PRC-8, 9, 10, GRC-9, ARC aircraft radios, BC342 etc, so it is possible the BC-191 might have been one of the sets made. > Regards, > Takashi Doi ******************************************************* What An Ass! A couple weeks ago a warning was posted to the group to beware of Ben Nock. I know it was a rather vague message, but the specifics involved several stories, all complicated & lengthy. Below is his latest stunt. Mind you, the principle involved here has not had any contact with Noch in some time do to a soar experience with him. Noch has gone through & found old messages, & stolen the addresses from the cc. What a total ass! His reputation is well deserved in Europe, but we here in the states do not have the close or frequent contact with him so more time is required for us to develop a dislike for the man. The shit head has resorted to these tactics because most people will no longer have anything to do with him. Is the reason becoming clear? BTW, there is no Midland Museum, this is what he calls his warehouse of merchandize. I put it to you all in the group, suppose you had a mailing list of friends & family that you sent message to, like jokes(as I do). Then somebody pirates this list to sell snake oil. This is exactly what has happened below. Dennis -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dennis, I got this message forwarded to me by some one else. It seems that Ben Nock has again pirated names from my address list and sent them a request for Japanese HRO coils. One person is an English teacher/Star Trek fan and would not know anything about radios. The next is someone who imports western clothing for shooters and so on. One is a bartender who is married to a home town police officer. Not only is this man a complete ass but he is a stupid ass. Why pick on my list and no-one else? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From: > To: xxxxxx > Subject: CHECK THIS OUT > Date: Thursday, November 20, 1997 11:32 AM > > xxxx I GOT THIS IN THE MAIL FROM A FRIEND OF YOURS- DANNY > > Hello fellow enthusiasts; > > I have just acquired the Japanese copy of the HRO, called, > I believe, a CHI-ICHI, dated 1943. > Needless to say, as with the real HRO's, more coils are > needed. So, if anyone has such a spare coil, any range, > then I would be interested in buying or trading for it. > cheers, Ben G4BXD > > MILITARY WIRELESS IN THE MIDLANDS MUSEUM > Return-Path: > Received: from relay33.mail.aol.com (relay33.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.33]) > by air11.mail.aol.com (v36.0) with SMTP; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:26:53 -0500 > Received: from hil-img-9.compuserve.com (hil-img-9.compuserve.com > [149.174.177.139]) > by relay33.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) > with ESMTP id NAA07748; > Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:34:36 -0500 (EST) > Received: (from mailgate@localhost) > by hil-img-9.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.9) id NAA29249; > Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:33:44 -0500 (EST) > Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:30:11 -0500 > From: BEN NOCK > Subject: Japanes set > Sender: BEN NOCK ******************************************************* HUMOR; For inquiring minds: If a statue in the park of a person on a horse has both front legs in the air, the person died in battle; if the horse has one front leg in the air, the person died as a result of wounds received in battle; if the horse has all four legs on the ground, the person died of natural causes. No word in the English language rhymes with month, orange, silver, and purple. Clans of "long- ago" that wanted to get rid of their unwanted people without killing them used to burn their houses down -- hence the expression "to get fired." Canada is an Indian word meaning "Big Village." There are two credit cards for every person in the United States. "I am" is the shortest complete sentence in the English language. The most common name in the world is Mohammed. The word "Samba" means "to rub navels together." The glue on Israeli postage stamps is certified kosher. Mel Blanc (the voice of Bugs Bunny) was allergic to carrots. Dr. Suess pronounced "Suess" such that it rhymed with "rejoice." In Casablanca, Humphrey Bogart never said, "Play it again, Sam." Sherlock Holmes never said "Elementary, my dear Watson." More people are killed annually by donkeys than die in air crashes. A "jiffy" is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second. The average person falls asleep in seven minutes. Hershey's Kisses are called that because the machine that makes them, looks like it's kissing the conveyor belt. Money isn't made out of paper, it's made out of cotton. An ostrich's eye is bigger than its brain. The longest recorded flight of a chicken is thirteen seconds. Every time you lick a stamp, you're consuming 1/10 of a calorie. The phrase "rule of thumb" is derived from an Old English Law which stated that you couldn't beat your wife with anything wider than your thumb. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Husband and wife are getting all snugly in bed. The passion is heating up. But then the wife stops and says "I don't feel like it, I just want you to hold me." "Just WHAT??", stammers the husband. The wife just explains that he is obviously not in tune with her emotional needs as a Woman. The husband realizes that nothing is going to happen tonight and he might as well deal with it. So the next day the husband takes her shopping at a big dept store. He walks around with her as she tries on three very expensive outfits. She can't decide. He tells his wife to take all three of them. Then pick out matching shoes worth $200 each. Finally, they visit the Jewelry Dept where she gets a set of diamond ear rings. The wife is so excited. She goes for the tennis bracelet. The husband says "You don't even play tennis, but if you like it then let's get it." The wife is so excited she cannot even believe what is going on. She says "I'm ready to go, lets go to the cash register." The husband says, "Oh no, honey, we're not going to buy all this stuff." The wife's face goes blank. "No honey - I just want you to HOLD this stuff for a while." Her face gets really red and she is about to explode and the Husband says "You're obviously not in tune with my financial needs as a Man..." --------- End forwarded message ---------- When finished reading use browser back button or go to http://www.prc68.com/MCGP/MCGP.html